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| From: | HeatherB  | 5/1/2008 8:41 am |
| To: | ALL |
(1 of 312) | | | | 17235.1 | |
Hi everyone, Last month's book created some great discussion and I'm looking forward to everyone's insights on this month's book too. So welcome to the discussion on Kim by Rudyard Kipling Cheers
Heather P.S. The content page should be live today. So check back! |
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| | | | | 17235.3 in reply to 17235.2 | |
A truly GREAT book in which all the main characters - regardless of their race - show a respect for each other that is sadly not mirrored in real life.
Interestingly, the C of E pardre is the one English figure who doesn't come out if it too well. Was Kipling RC? |
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| | | | | 17235.4 in reply to 17235.3 | |
| Welcome to the disucssion! I must admit that I started the book yesterday and have only read about 20 pages or so. The first description of Kim is quite interesting I find. He does seem to know everyone and his background story of his mother and father is sad. I wonder if he wasn't the only child of half and half parents to be suspicious of white people? |
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| | | | | 17235.5 in reply to 17235.4 | |
| As I understand it, "half-castes" in India were in effect a caste. Many of them held jobs on the railways or as NCOs in the army, for instance. Large numbers of them left India when independence came in 1948. There's quite a big community of them in NW London, for instance. I'm on about p. 120 and enjoying it, but I feel he's a bit condescending towards the various Indian communities he describes. All stereotyped neatly so they fit into the jigsaw of the British Raj. As for Kim and the Tibetan, there's a clever bit of role reversal there. Kim plays the grownup (as Saffron does to Eddie in the BBC sitcom "Absolutely Fabulous"). |
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| | | | | 17235.6 in reply to 17235.3 | |
| He was married in All Souls' Langham Place, so I doubt if he was a Catholic. No mention of it in Wikipedia, anyway. If he had been, he would have been scrupulously polite about the Anglican clergy. I think it takes an Anglican to loathe the Anglican clergy properly, doesn't it? |
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| | | | | 17235.7 in reply to 17235.4 | |
Kim isn't half and half, he's entirely Irish...an Irish nursemaid for a mother, an Irish soldier for a father. They meet in India, are married and have him there, then die. From that point he is raised by an Indian woman, who, at the time the story begins, has also died.
That's sort of the central theme of the book.....what makes us who we are? Nature vs. Nurture....is Kim the Irishman that his bloodlines would make him, or the Indian that the country of his birth and his upbringing would make him? Or maybe both?
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| | | | | 17235.8 in reply to 17235.5 | |
| Re the roles of Kim and the Lama, I'd have to disagree.....Kim has worldly street-smart knowledge, but the Lama, though innocent in many ways, has wisdom and education. Again, it's Kipling showing two (and often more) ways of looking at something, and leaving it to you to wonder which is best...or if there is no "best" at all. |
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| | | | | 17235.10 in reply to 17235.8 | |
| I don't think the relationship between K and L has quite finished developing where I am in the book. The description of the Grand Trunk Road is a lovely set piece, isn't it? |
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| | | | | 17235.11 in reply to 17235.5 | |
| Yes I'm also finding the characters quite stereotyped and a bit racist. For instance when the boys first meet the lama and they're trying to find out who he is, they use terms, such as "Chinaman" that would certainly not be considered politically correct today. |
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| | | | | 17235.12 in reply to 17235.7 | |
| Thanks Susan for clearing that up. I thought his father was Indian, although I knew his mother was Irish. He does pose an interesting discussion for Nature vs. Nurture as brainiac suggests. So far in the novel, I would definitely consider him more Indian than white. |
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| | | | | 17235.13 in reply to 17235.4 | |
| Both Kim's parents were white. His mother died when he was born, and his father a few years later. Kim was quite a character. Incidentally if you want an idea of how Kim could have been, read The Game by laurie R. King. |
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| | | | | 17235.14 in reply to 17235.7 | |
| His Indian nursemaid did not die, he ran away. |
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| | | | | 17235.16 in reply to 17235.10 | |
| It is fabulous....you feel you're there seeing it all! |
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| | | | | 17235.17 in reply to 17235.11 | |
Kipling is often thought racist by modern readers, but, though he was very much a product of his time, and background (let's face it, the English were occupying India, at a time when "the sun never set on the British Empire") I found him sympathetic...Kim learns from the Lama, who is portrayed as intelligent, educated, generous and truely holy.
I think that the racial stereotyping that is there (and yes, I'd agree it exists) was not meant to be offensive or, for that matter, derogatory. |
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| | | | | 17235.18 in reply to 17235.14 | |
:-) you're right, of course....at the time of the uprising, correct?
BTW, I enjoyed King's "The Game" as well....she does such good work (can't wait for the next installment in the series!) |
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| | | | | 17235.19 in reply to 17235.17 | |
Hmmm, that would make sense. Perhaps because we are so hyper-sensitive these days to racist remarks we forget that they weren't necessarily considered derogatory back then or meant to be. This is actually leads well in to the first reading guide question I'd like to discuss: For decades many critics have shown great disdain for Kipling, equating his work with the idea that British imperialism was a righteous and justified act. Is this assessment fair? Was Kipling simply writing what he knew or structuring his literature on his political beliefs? I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this. |
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| | | | | 17235.20 in reply to 17235.13 | |
| Thanks Deb, I'll put it on my list to read for the future! |
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