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| From: | HeatherB | 5/30/2008 11:24 am |
| To: | ALL |
(1 of 86) | | | | 17415.1 | |
Hi everyone, I know we're not starting to read I, Claudius by Robert Graves until Monday, but I thought I'd put up a discussion just in case some one to start early. :) |
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| | | | | 17415.2 in reply to 17415.1 | |
| I have read the books and watched the series so often I can probably recite passages by heart. But I have a serious quibble with Robert Graves' scholarship: he is much too much inclined to take the Suetonius version of history over every other opinion. He's in love with his gossip. |
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| | | | | 17415.3 in reply to 17415.2 | |
But would we have read the books and watched the series if it were a nice sober work of serious scholarship? Would they even have made a series out of the book if it hadn't been a juicy, gossipy scandalous story? |
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| | | | | 17415.4 in reply to 17415.2 | |
| Talking about the series - I thought that the standout performances were by George Baker and Brian Blessed. |
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| | | | | 17415.5 in reply to 17415.2 | |
In the introduction to "Claudius the God", Graves replies to this criticism, much used by reviewers at the time "I, Claudius" was published. He gives a long list of sources which he used for both books.
'lette |
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| | | | | 17415.6 in reply to 17415.5 | |
Claudius, early on in the story, in a discussion with Livy and Pollio about the role of the historian, remarks that "there are two different ways of writing history: one is to persuade men to virtue and the other is to compel men to truth. The first is Livy's way and the other is yours (Pollio's): and perhaps they are not irreconcilable." Sulpicius then chimes in with: "Yes, Livy will never lack readers. People love being 'persuaded to ancient virtue' by a charming writer, particularly when they are told in the same breath that modern civilization has made such virtue impossible of attainment. But mere truth-tellers - "undertakers who lay out the corpse of history" (to quote poor Catullus's epigram on the noble Pollio) - people who record no more than actually occurred - such men can only hold an audience while they have a good cook and a cellar of Cyprian wine." So I would guess that, in the character of Claudius as historian, Graves attempts to straddle both roles. |
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| | | | | 17415.7 in reply to 17415.1 | |
That conversation I quoted from, between Claudius, Livy, Pollio and Sulpicius, ends with Pollio's private advice to Claudius to "exaggerate your limp, stammer deliberately, sham sickness frequently, let your wits wander, jerk your head, and twitch with your hands on all public and semi-public occasions" in order that Claudius be able to survive all the machinations of the court and, especially, of the person most desirous of retaining control, and power, behind the throne. I thought it telling that Claudius sees this suggested ruse as the means by which he might someday be in a position to restore popular liberty, by which, of course, he means the Republic. That, and the role and duty of an historian, are what I'm seeing, so far, as the underlying themes of the book. (I'm trying to finish the book before dipping into the videos of the TV series; I saw it when I was in England when it first came out and it captured everyone's interest, marvellous performances, I can't really decide between them for my favorite). |
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| | | | | 17415.8 in reply to 17415.4 | |
Absolutely. Although Sian whats her face is the best, in my humble opinion. George Baker is fantastic, however, and Brian Blessed is exactly as he is caricatured in the Cena Trimalchionis. Blustering, a bit of a buffoon, but shrewd, very shrewd, underneath it all. Sly, one might call it. But Sian Philips, as a foil to Augustus and Tiberius, is perfect. Her character reminds me of the character she plays in Tinker, Tailor... John Hurt is good, but he is just too old. George Baker they can make older, but John Hurt just looks too old. I know Graves had all sorts of scholarly explanations that he relied upon, but it still remains that much of his book is speculation. It is rather difficult to impute motivations and emotions in a so-called work of history, which I'm aware this is not. Don't get me wrong, though. I love both books, and the series as well (I own the series and am on the second copies of both I, Claudius and Claudius the God.) |
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| | | | | 17415.9 in reply to 17415.8 | |
I try not to overpraise performances in roles which almost play themselves .... I thought Livia was one of those! All SP had to do was remember her lines and not bump into the furniture .... Whereas GB and BB had a lot to find. Anyway, those are the words of Great Wotan.
I'm taking my M1917 to the range tomorrow, and the Martini-Henry arrives on Monday! Oooooooooooh! |
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| | | | | 17415.10 in reply to 17415.8 | |
Aging in the television series is an odd thing. Because some of the characters age from birth to old age, and the series was made decades ago, we can see both how the actors were 'aged' for the show and how they actually aged.
I think that at the time (I haven't seen 'I, Claudius' in years) if I thought about how old Caligula was supposed to be, compared to how old John Hurt looked (I was a teenager, or near enough, so all adults looked 'old') I probably thought it was an attempt at showing the effects of a dissolute life.
On the other hand, Derek Jacobi, playing Claudius, was given cartoonish aging make-up, that looked increasingly plaster-like. Which, at the time, I just took as a desperate effort to make him look older and older. Now that I've seen him actually older, in 'Cadfael', where it wouldn't be such as stretch to imagine him as 'elderly Claudius', I kind of wish it were possible to go back and CGI his current face back into the series.
Back to the actual book, one of the things I liked about the book was that I could stop and look things up, see how the book compares to other sources.
edited for spelling
Edited 5/31/2008 7:58 pm by bookherder |
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| | | | | 17415.11 in reply to 17415.1 | |
Like Agrippina , I have read them both many many times and find myself quoting them to other people ( how embarrassing for me ). I watched the series when it was first released and haven't seen it since. I really should get hold of a copy. I wonder how it would stand the test of time ? Does it translate well to the new millennium ? Yes, Sian Phillips & DJ were wonderful but the books are truly excellent.
Jen in Melbourne
Luddites rule - but correspond really slowly
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| | | | | 17415.12 in reply to 17415.8 | |
Hi .I remember Graves said in an interview that he wrote I Claudius to pay a debt(or taxes), so he pretty much rattled it out.It does not even stick by Seutonius and his iffy history of gossip.
He was Professor of Classics at Cairo (I think), so must have had a decent grounding in ancient history and could give plenty of referances for research.I just enjoy them as the light fun read they were meant to be and don't think as them as history.They are a kind of airport novellette introduction to classical history.
I watched the series a couple of weeks ago back to back with Rome (again)both of which I loved but still think Up Pompei and Carry on Cleo had more historical accuracy.
The Allan Massey series on the caesars are among the best I have read, and Tom Hollands popular history Rubicon is a must for anyone interested in background.
This is one of the most well documented periods of history, we know as much if not more more about Rome at this period than we know of Henry V.
Augie. Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione. |
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| | | | | 17415.13 in reply to 17415.12 | |
| You're in good form this morning, LA. "Up Pompeii" and "Carry on, Cleo" indeed! You wait till Heather sees that tomorrow! Robert Graves was a journalist ("The Long Weekend") as well as a poet, and from what I remember of "I, Claudius", the former dominates. And if we can't rely on his account of Suetonius, can we rely on his account of how he wrote the book? You know what journalists are like. |
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| | | | | 17415.14 in reply to 17415.13 | |
Hey Brainy,I've allways liked his poems and liked "Goodbye to All That" but prefer Sassoons memoirs and war fiction.I had never thought of him as a journalist.I'll get myself a copy of "The Long Weekend" Ive liked everything else he wrote"King Jesus" and "The Greek Myths" etc. I believe he was allways a bit embarrassed by "I Claudius" and its mass appeal, he was a terrible snob about many things. Late last year or early this they were showing "Up Pompei" and "I Claudius" back to back on BBC 4.I'm sure the sets and wigs were better for Frankie Howard. I agree journos can not allways be trusted with history just look at Winston Churchill(I'm going to get into trouble for that).But as far as I know Graves never claimed any historical truths for it. I liked Patrick Stewart as Macro what a fine head of hair that man had. I have just about finished Tacitus "The Histories" and have just finished Xenephon "The Persian Expedition",I find the primary sources very easy to read but still love reading interpretations of the classical world no matter how bad some of them are.Conn Iggulden novels are the most ludicrous and had me laughing like a drain Oh and thanks to whomever it was who said about the shift key and enter so as not to leave a space.
Augie.
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione. |
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| From: | mrdale | 6/2/2008 5:07 am |
| To: | ALL |
(15 of 86) | | | | 17415.15 in reply to 17415.14 | |
At age 50 with 5+ years of college (engineering), I regret to say that I could not follow this book. I started to read it, got perhaps 50 pages into it, and was completely lost. I would have needed to graph out the complex family genealogy to have any chance. I came into this knowing practically nothing about the Roman Empire. I was hoping I could learn something as with Da Vinci Code or the like, where the reading is not so deep.
I imagine I'll be the only person out of hundreds or thousands of masses to take this opinion. Unfortunately I have to quit reading at this time. I do not have time to pull out the encyclopedia and study the material, which I believe is the only way I will understand this stuff.
I have no doubt I will be the only person who feels this way. Does anyone have any comments/tips for this poor fellow?
Thanks in advance...
Edited 6/2/2008 5:09 am by mrdale |
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| | | | | 17415.16 in reply to 17415.15 | |
though I love this book, I do sympathise with your dilemma - the Julians are a horribly complicated family! You ask for "tips", so you are obviously a brave soul wanting to perservere. If you can get the DVD of the BBC production, that might help, as you'd have faces to put to the names.
'lette |
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| | | | | 17415.17 in reply to 17415.12 | |
| There are many classics scholars with pretty out their interpretations. I've sat through a number of conferences listening to some of them. So I hold a measure of respect for his learning, but I know some of his neo-Platonism ideas to be a bit off the wall, for example. |
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| | | | | 17415.18 in reply to 17415.15 | |
| What on earth could anyone learn from The da Vinci Code? Apart from a reinforcement of the well-known slogan that no one ever went broke under-estimating public taste? |
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| | | | | 17415.19 in reply to 17415.2 | |
| Yes I do agree the book so far is quite gossipy (as I do remember Suetonius being). I guess he goes with the theory that gossip is more interesting than fact. :) |
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| | | | | 17415.20 in reply to 17415.11 | |
| Hi jent. This is the first time that I'm reading I, Claudius and I'm definitely enjoying it so far. I always like to think that older books translate well in to modern times as invariably the same problems back then still exist now, but just in different forms. However, being a Classics student myself I am biased. :) |
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