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 General -  creaky/outdated/sophisticated???notify me whenever anyone posts in this discussionSubscribe  
 
From: EL_M  Oct-23 8:02 am 
To: ALL  (1 of 379) 
 21071.1 

Ever pick a venerable not-a-classic hundred year old novel/tome from the dustiest shelf of an antiquarian store and browse through it for a few minutes?

The 'wordiness", the elaborate sentence structures, the beating around the garden path, the clunkiness "never use one word where two paragraphs will do" type thing ????

I wonder - was the writing truely that 

'artificial'

for the most part of are we just a lot dimmer than our literate forebearers?

Look at the crap writing that dominates the best sellers lists today - are we, fellow Abers, as doomed a species as those populating the Edwardian Lawn Parties with book in hand langudily and sonorously tittilating (be quiet Wotan) rapt audiences?

In fifty or a hundred years time will such masterworks as

Green Ice

The Far Arena

Bilgewater

Death of a Red Heroine

Earth Abides

be regarded with a patronizing chuckle ????

"The Agony and the Ecstasy" is the closest to a 'Missing Link" between the days of yore and now that I havepersonally encountered - extremely difficult to get past the alnguage for the first fifty pages or so but then - mein gott! does it grab one with an unholy glee!

 

El_M!

 
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From: Wotan  Oct-23 1:25 pm 
To: EL_M  (2 of 379) 
 21071.2 in reply to 21071.1 
A good book is a good book, whenever it was written. The fact is, though, that at least 99.9% of all books published* are utter rubbish. This has always been the case. Old books seem better than new books because it's only the good old books which anyone has ever heard of, let alone read. It's the same with cars. It's all too easy to think that the cars of the twenties and thirties were marvellous compared to the characterless Tinker-Toys of today - but only the rarest gems from those days have survived.
 
*Of course, 99.9% of all the books you like are rubbish - but that's a different subject.
 
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From: EL_M  Oct-23 2:15 pm 
To: Wotan  (3 of 379) 
 21071.3 in reply to 21071.2 

I disagree.

There was a marvellous article in Smithsonian some time back about a hugely popular Victorian era British poet - canna remember his name. This gent was an international mega-star for a few decades, and now not one in a million would recognise his name.

So - there are trends and snobberies relating to literature just like in everything else.

Will people be reading Shakespear in two hundred years time? Absolutely not - he has been an anochronistic git for a long time now and it is only in the precious athmosphere of the 'Literati' and poncified Actors (in plays subsidized by us suffering tax payers) that his reputation survives at all as a quaint remenent of the hegemonistic influence on the art world of the British Empire ( of course Old Boy - the best playwright in the world HAS to be an Englishman,,,what about old Shakespeare, he certainly wasn't a radical or the type to encourage seperatist movements...)

Anyway - IF there were more venues such as Southwarks Globe it would be FANTASTIC and Shakespeare would be actually MOST ENJOYABLE....but their isna and he aintna!

So - to get back to my ORIGINAL posutulate-

Has the standard of writing degenerated or become merely more 'au courant' ??????

El_M!

 
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From: Wotan  Oct-23 3:36 pm 
To: EL_M  (4 of 379) 
 21071.4 in reply to 21071.3 
Chump.
 
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From: arpad  Oct-23 3:41 pm 
To: EL_M  (5 of 379) 
 21071.5 in reply to 21071.3 
If you look at what was published over the last century most of the authors would be unknown today ! So bad that even academics refuse to have anything to do with them !
If the holy books of the various cults were read for their literary value atheism would predominate today !
For that matter over the course of your life you will shed some of what you thought was deathless prose for other loves !
 
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From: tabkistfresca  Oct-23 7:56 pm 
To: Wotan  (6 of 379) 
 21071.6 in reply to 21071.2 

I tend to agree with you on this one.  Same with music.  And movies. (Just watch some of the lesser knowns on Turner Classic Movies, and see if you think that the "C" in "TCM" should always stand for "Classic."  It isn't like it took humankind until now to invent clunkers.) 

But, even if the percentage of junk published is about the same as it always was, it might seem like there's more junk now because more is published now in the first place, good and bad.  And it's still with us.  Maybe.  I don't know. 

tabkistfresca 

 

 
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From: tabkistfresca  Oct-23 8:06 pm 
To: EL_M  (7 of 379) 
 21071.7 in reply to 21071.3 

Oh, I don't know.  I like that "anachronistic git" - ha ha - called Shakespeare.  He had a way of putting things.  "'Tis better to be that which we destroy than by destruction dwell in doubtful joy'" sounds so much prettier than any other way I can think of putting it.

tabkistfresca 

 

 
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From: tabkistfresca  Oct-23 8:23 pm 
To: EL_M  (8 of 379) 
 21071.8 in reply to 21071.1 
Oh, yes, I've read some of those elaborately worded older books   - "Bleak House" by Dickens, for one.  It's like being taken by  taxi on a 20 mile zig zag to arrive a block away.  A good editor would hack out about two thirds of that book, and not deprive the reader of anything important.  I don't think we're dimmer than past readers; just, less patient.  We have so many more distractions for entertainment now. 

tabkistfresca 

 

 
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From: tabkistfresca  Oct-23 8:29 pm 
To: arpad  (9 of 379) 
 21071.9 in reply to 21071.5 

Yep.  I once thought "Lisa Bright & Dark" by John Neufeld was "deathless prose."   Of course, I was 14 at the time.  But I still blush.

tabkistfresca 

 

 
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From: skywatcher  Oct-23 10:10 pm 
To: Wotan  (10 of 379) 
 21071.10 in reply to 21071.2 
Evolution at work.  Though, much as evolution is driven as much by blind luck as by hard rules of natural selection, the fortunes of works of art are also driven by the luck of changing tastes.  Shakespeare languished posthumously in obscurity before his apotheosis; same with Papa Bach.

Skywatcher

 
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From: brainiac4  Oct-23 10:47 pm 
To: EL_M  (11 of 379) 
 21071.11 in reply to 21071.1 
Do you feel the same way about 19th-century paintings? Too much detail? Just waiting for Cubism to slash through the rubbish? I wonder who the forgotten poet could have been. Could you look in the periodical again?
 
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From: dianna  Oct-24 12:37 am 
To: brainiac4  (12 of 379) 
 21071.12 in reply to 21071.11 
Good point Brian, paintings, like books, are of their time and the survivors are a matter of luck and the natural propensity of man to look after that which he values and pass it on.  It is impossible to recreate the mindset of the 19th C but Tabby makes a good point about there being fewer distractions so readers were willing to work harder. Also they were more formal times and writing reflected that.  Few people read Thucydides and  Heroditus or even Homer now, even in translation, but to my mind they are among the finest books ever written so fashion and perception (remember Vincit banging on about how awful Homer is?) have a role to play.  We don't despise Greek sculpture because we now have Henry Moore. In art it is easier to see how styles evolved and how art reflected the times and count ourselves lucky to have it. Literature is different in that it is harder to see the changes, but to call a book a clunker because it is not easy to read is a mistake. Not all modern books are models of clarity either, I wonder what future generations will make of James Joyce?

  dianna

        



Edited 10/24/2009 12:37 am by dianna
 
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From: Wotan  Oct-24 2:38 am 
To: tabkistfresca  (13 of 379) 
 21071.13 in reply to 21071.6 
" .... of making many books there is no end .... " - and that was in the second century BC!
 
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From: Wotan  Oct-24 2:39 am 
To: tabkistfresca  (14 of 379) 
 21071.14 in reply to 21071.8 
Chumpess.
 
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From: Wotan  Oct-24 2:50 am 
To: skywatcher  (15 of 379) 
 21071.15 in reply to 21071.10 
"Obscurity" is putting it rather too strong. Neither Shake-Speare nor JSB were ever obscure, and the period of their unfashionableness was relatively brief. Pepys makes remarks about WS which show that the Shake-Speare cult wasn't in existence 100 years after the great man's birth - but his plays were in the repertoire! And Mozart, for example, revered JSB as much as anyone ever has, and Beethoven learned his trade from the 48 Ps and Fs. Of course, it's fair to say that JSB's popular renown was delayed longer than we would think proper ....
 
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From: Wotan  Oct-24 2:51 am 
To: dianna  (16 of 379) 
 21071.16 in reply to 21071.12 
Bugger future generations! What have future generations ever done for us?
 
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From: arpad  Oct-24 9:32 am 
To: tabkistfresca  (17 of 379) 
 21071.17 in reply to 21071.9 

Blush ?

Now there's an archaic talent !

 
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From: EL_M  Oct-24 9:50 am 
To: Wotan  (18 of 379) 
 21071.18 in reply to 21071.4 

erm...you used a 'u' instead of an 'a' there old boy....

El_M!

 
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From: EL_M  Oct-24 9:51 am 
To: arpad  (19 of 379) 
 21071.19 in reply to 21071.5 
There's a PhD thesis contained in what you state so well there - don't - for the love of god - don't put temptation in my path.... : )

El_M!

 
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From: EL_M  Oct-24 9:58 am 
To: tabkistfresca  (20 of 379) 
 21071.20 in reply to 21071.7 

I'm not saying hes BAD - but THE BEST????...ever???? ????...out of all the cultures of the world?????.....

What about Milton, Goethe, Spenser, Dante?????

And what is going to happen when we are a predominantly Mandarin speaking world? What about the wonderful Chinese/Asian writers who never got a look in thanks to Western Imperialism????

 

what we basically do is give the kids in school Shakespeare and spend vast amounts of time, money and resources educating them about him - and, for me the convincer, just how many will EVER pick up his works again when they do not have to???

Shakespeare has his niche, no arguement there - but I would argue that so to have the authors of those hypergargoylic 'Manga' productions that are starting to appear on library shelves also....

I honestly believe Shakespeare is part of the 'in-the-know' apparatus on the same lines as the aristo convention of pronouncing 'Cholmondley' as 'Chumly'....it's just a way of inflating the aura of PLU.....

El_M!

 
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